Why Are Black Women Leaving K-12 School Leadership? Inside “Extractive Oppression”
Short answer: Black women are leaving K-12 leadership because the system takes more from them than it gives back — labor, emotional regulation, and intellectual property, handed out alongside limited authority and almost no protection. Researchers Tamra Simpson and Valery Dragon call that pattern extractive oppression, and their point is that it is a condition of the system, not a flaw in the woman.
The numbers don’t line up, and that’s the whole story
Women make up roughly three out of four adults working in America’s K-12 schools. Black women are about 7.5% of the teaching workforce. And yet Black women hold somewhere around 1.4% of the nation’s superintendencies.
Sit with that gap. The building runs on women. The district office does not. Principal, assistant principal, dean, director, assistant superintendent, superintendent — the further up the ladder you climb, the whiter and more male the room gets. That isn’t a pipeline problem. Pipelines that leak this consistently were built to leak.
What “extractive oppression” actually means
Simpson coined the term while running empathy interviews with Black women leaders across the country, and she chose the word deliberately. You extract minerals from the earth. You extract riches. What she kept hearing was that same verb applied to people — labor extracted, emotional regulation extracted, intellectual property extracted. Women building frameworks and turnaround plans and getting neither credit nor authority nor cover when the work drew fire.
Her framing is the part that matters most: it has evolved from a feeling into a systems condition. As she put it, the system is designed to improve off her harm. The outcomes go up. The cost lands on one person. And that person ends up working directly against her own agency, which is exactly how you get turnover, burnout, and declining physical and mental health.
If you have ever asked yourself am I the only one running into this, or am I just not good enough — that question is the trap. Simpson asked it too, early in her career, until enough other Black women told her there were silent norms on the field she had never been handed.
“Would you consider yourself more instructional or more cultural?”
Dragon was asked exactly that in a principal interview for an all-Black school. She recognized it immediately for what it was: a coded question, and a trap with two exits.
Say cultural and you have accepted the assignment — love these kids, don’t push them, don’t make them rigorous, don’t let them ask questions. Say instructional and you are suddenly not “of the community.” Her answer was to refuse the split: she believes in the culture of instruction.
The same trap catches Black men in schools from the other direction. Credentialed educators get reduced — her word, chosen on purpose — to disciplinarian, hallway enforcer, stand-in father figure. Big El has lived exactly that in Philadelphia. You arrive with a degree and a subject you love, and the building decides your real job is behavior management.
The findings that surprised even the authors
Two things landed hard in the research. The first was the sheer volume of maternity discrimination documented in the interviews: women told they couldn’t take leave because who will keep the kids under control if you’re gone, women called back before they had healed, women made to understand the job was conditional.
The second cut a different way. When Black women in their polling were asked which manager they’d want, not all of them picked the Black manager — and the reason wasn’t self-hatred. It was arithmetic. A white manager gets the lighter assignment, and a lighter assignment means a shot at balance. Meanwhile every white woman surveyed named a Black woman as the mentor who moved her career. We are still, reliably, everyone’s ladder.
“Are you built for change?”
The hardest moment in the conversation is Dragon’s challenge, and it isn’t aimed at the system. Being a change leader, she argues, is not the same as being a hero — and plenty of people who want things to change have never changed anything about themselves. Real systems change is never done alone, never self-serving, and always costs the person doing it something.
Her tell for who’s real: people leading for change start with vision-setting, not with a product. If you need a specific outcome you can hold up, the system will make a tool out of you. If you’re after hearts and minds, that’s a different job.
It’s the same question this show keeps circling — see Why Do Black Men Struggle to Say What They Need — and it connects straight to why the fight over Critical Race Theory got so loud. The system would rather you not ask questions of it, and it would prefer to raise students who don’t know there are questions to ask. Follow the money and the design intent gets clearer still — the same logic runs through how the US tax system quietly disadvantages Black Americans.
How to fight back: Justice by Design
Their framework asks leaders to merge continuous improvement with intersectionality and be contextually responsive — not “culturally responsive,” which has been generalized into meaninglessness. In practice: start with empathy interviews with the people closest to the problem, build your data from what they tell you, map which parts of the system need redesigning and what that will cost, then move 1% at a time and be willing to sit in the discomfort.
On where K-12 is headed, Dragon is clear-eyed rather than hopeful: more privatization, and new versions of redlining dressed up as school choice. The hope she does have is in Black-led micro schools pursuing accreditation so public dollars can follow the children they actually serve.
Tamra Simpson and Valery Dragon are the co-authors of Black Women, Leadership, and Change in K-12 Education: Beyond the Status Quo (Springer, November 2025).
Watch the full conversation
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informed, intelligent in the black. Welcome, welcome, welcome. What is up? What is up? What is up? Back once again. It is the Incredible In the Black podcast. And in case you weren't aware, this is a podcast dedicated to covering the current events and social issues going on in your black world and covering it all from the perspective of three grown ass men who typically like to get into a little bit of good trouble. I am your host, Big O, uh, Mr. In the Black himself. Um, the rest of my light-skinned union are taking a break today, but I have some incredible guests for us to have a conversation for our black light segment for today. Um, our guests for today are the authors for Black Women Leadership and Change in K
through2 education. co-authors Tamara Simpson, a systems builder and improvement specialist, and Valerie Dragon, a systems and leadership strategist, uh have written a book to equip leaders with the tools and the mindsets necessary to move beyond short-term fixes and towards enduring transformative change. Can't wait to get into that conversation. So, please let me introduce Tamara Simpson and Miss Valerie Dragon. I don't know if I should have ladies night playing or something in the background. Welcome to welcome to the both of you. Thank you both for taking time out and joining us for the conversation today. Definitely. Thank you. Now I am familiar with the both of you. But for our audience, for our listeners, for our viewers, if you could tell us both tell us a little bit about yourselves. All right. Who wants to start first?
Valerie, you want to jump in or you want The mic's yours. Go ahead. All right. Well, so Tamara Simpson and All Things Systems is my current role as a county officer in education and educational leader. Um, prior to my current uh position, I've been I feel like I've held just about every role you could have in the schoolhouse from afterchool teaching and supports to uh being a teacher primarily in the elementary grades, assistant principal and principal as well. Uh and then because you know I've got a hunger for learning, I branched into research as well um in the seat that I do now with continuous improvement. So author and researcher um and all things trying to create positive change for those in the education system. And I'll pass it over
to Valerie. Perfect. Well, we have a lot in common. I'm Valerie Dragon. all things school, improving education, and the whole teaching and learning experience despite or in spite of any title. Um, I work for a national nonprofit working largely on developing teacher and leader practice. I'm the vice president of strategic partnerships there. Um, I also have my own consulting company called The Guild LLC where we actually take on leaders one by one and make sure that their uh strategic plans are just in line with whatever their change theory is. So, just holding leaders so that they can hold schools. Fantastic. Um, we need to start at the root of this conversation and I think that the title of the book is a very powerful one. Just it just stands out so deeply, right? Black women leadership and change in K through 12 education is
very, very specific. So, I'm going to ask you guys the question, I know I've given the the the the I guess the foreshadowing, but what really made you guys come together to write this book? Yeah, Tamara, you start for sure. Yeah. Well, it's I'm going to try to make a long story short and concise, but by way of a Black Writers Coalition space, Valerie and I had the opportunity to meet and similar in our backgrounds in education leadership roles. um we noticed some commonalities and common experiences and uh the conver one conversation led to another to share about research and work that was taking place that I was involved in. Um and
then it just seemed like a a pairing that could be unmatched. And so um I'll let Valerie jump in and share her perspective of that. She's got our origin story right. I think to add the feelings to it is we were both in leadership and we were tired and the commonality is like when you want to lead systemic change, there's a sacrifice that isn't necessarily spoken of, but we black women tend to be the ones put in the seat to lie to lead and guide that. And so we just wanted to unpack what it means for you to be a black woman and go into leadership. And I think behind even just that kind of like curiosity and the feeling, uh, Tamara was really passionate about a word that spoke to me, a concept called extractive oppression. And when she said those words, I literally could think through
why I gave up on systems level change and just now support it. But it was a concept that I wanted to help her spread. And then the idea of just validating empathy interviews as a method to get data from stories that are often just not heard. All of those interest on top of just I think maybe my own professional therapy therapy needed. Um we just thought like you know what do nerds do? Nerds put it in a book. I know that's right. All right. So I I So is it safe to say that this book emerged because you guys found kinship and commiseration about what the system looked like and all of those other things? Is that fair to say? I think it is. Yes. There was a little
bit of trauma bonding that was taking place. Absolutely. happens to the best of us. There was trauma bonding, but I think it's like, you know, when you really care about like the journey that your people, like whatever your people is, but it was like just because we weren't holding the title doesn't mean we stopped helping. And so it was almost like, well, how do we actually not make this about positionality and just schools? If you are holding intersectionality, there's a superpower you have in seeing people that are unseen. So what if we captured that? So it wasn't like the give up just commiserate, but it was like how do we push forward a framework of thinking so that people cannot think of this as the seat they're in, but what they're feeling compelled to do. And I would even add another piece to that in
thinking about I know my experience personally early on in my career when I came up against political barriers because education is political and the changes that you want to see and supporting the most vulnerable. I often wondered am I the only one like experiencing these roadblocks or is there something I'm not doing well enough? Am I needing to develop something more? Right? because why is this happening to me? And I feel like I'm doing all the things. I'm following the rulebook. I'm talking to the mentors all you know and and my heart is in the right place for kids. I am trying to give voice and advocate right for teachers but also children and their families. And the amount of barriers
would just maybe it wouldn't baffle you but it shocked me initially coming in very naive into that position. And so as I continued to hear from other black women in leadership positions who said, "Oh, girl, there are silent norms that you need to learn about. You're not following the rules." And so your hand is getting slapped, right? Like, "Oh, we love the tenacity. You're so fierce, but you're not following the silent norms." And to be honest, I didn't know that there were any on the playing field, right? So I was playing a different board game, so to speak. And um and then I got introduced to the rules and the way in which I needed to move in order to affect the change. But I think some of our connection too was about this is not just my single narrative and story. This is very pervasive. It's a common
experience. And in the empathy interviews we gathered in the book, we spoke to folks all across the nation. So it wasn't just in California or it wasn't just in Maryland or you know in one place but rather representation of yeah she froze but representation of different systems like no matter the systems design we were all having a common experience enough for us to say let's move forward with with a solution around this or at least presenting the rules so that other people are just more aware. Okay. Absolutely. Um, I think as you guys have laid that out for us, I think that it would be fair to start off this conversation fully by asking where you think we are in the current state of education now and for us to just to break that down or explain that if you
could. I see you don't she wide very very hard. I felt it in my spirit. Yes. You know, it's just because I think that there there's an age that I want to call out like, you know, I I can't think about school and not think about like how I was schooled and just wonder like are we further ahead or like are we just like stuck? I think if I put the current administration aside and just thought about the handling of education. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Is it possible? H I I'm going but is it possible given the weight of everything happening for you even to put this current administration to the side? Yes, it it is. I think the sad thing about the reality of education and largely education reform is that there have been many people holding it well before this administration. And so the
question is why is school not working right and there's a funding formula to that right across zip codes you can see what's working and what's not and the different types of fights like how how nuanced are there how direct are they there's so much into changing school that we're not even getting to the heart of education. And so in my mind it's like well what was school built for? Well, that's something we explore in the book because when you think about the history of just the system of school, it actually wasn't to better and improve people's, right? We just attached education to school and said that this is what it solves. So, I think when when you ask that question, the reason why I'm saying, well, put everything aside, there's a whole reframing of what school is for that we've always needed to answer and then let's not start about um
AI and the current conversations of like, well, what are teachers for? like we've just been asking ourselves the same questions that it's just time to just say, you know, when uh in thinking about the book, there's a framework that we developed that said we just need to analyze data differently. Right now, education is simplified to did they pass the state exams? That's how we know schools are serving people. We're saying, well, what is what what is data? Can we first start there? Yeah. Okay. After you figure out what the data is, then you're going to go through some type of analysis. And you still need someone skilled in who they're serving to hold that analysis. Then you design how you measure it, all the instruments involved, and that's how you get to reform. That's just not the way we change schools these days.
So, it's it's definitely one of those things where we have to think about what are we trying to cure. Yeah. Talk less about having skilled people to hold those folks accountable as well. That whole process is extremely important. Yeah. Um, there's a chapter of your book where you guys talk about listening between the lines. Tamara, if you could please just explain a little bit about listening between the lines, what that means to you, if you can break that down for me. Yeah. And I I want to um get specific too as I got the book here. So, I want to just call out that's our opening staging chapter where we're really laying out the purpose of the book, our goal. uh with the empathy interviews and really just setting the stage for needing to hear and understand that
these quote unquote, you know, invisible barriers, right? And helping folks to appreciate the unique challenge that we as black women have when we are serving in these positions. And I would even add on when we talked about uh positionality in the research, this applies though to folks who are leading from any spot in the system. So it's not necessarily you have to be a principal or the teacher leader or the superintendent. It's really anyone who is taking up that leadership role and advocating. Um, and we're asking folks to really be intentional and open up your eyes and be willing to see the barriers that we face um that other folks don't. And I'm even thinking about your question with the state of education, right? It quite
honestly, I think we named this in chapter three uh a poly crisis. There are so much um going on in education from chronic absenteeism uh with students. We know the achievement levels and the outcomes are dismal all across the nation and some spots are having gains but marginal when you compare it all aboard either way. Then when we talk about the adults in the system, the burnout that's happening and so I would argue I think everybody is feeling a little bit of the pinch in the education system but some of us feel it more right. And so, um, it goes back to that saying, well, you know, if if the dominant group is experiencing a cold, then black folks and marginalized are
have the flu, right? And so, everyone is experiencing some version of this, but are we willing and ready to acknowledge the additional impact that black women in leadership are experiencing um, as well? And and that even goes on to when we talk about jobs in this current space right now and the eraser and 300,000 if not more at this point, right? The number continuing to tick and loss of positions. Um and oftentimes those positions being ones that are impacting change, right? Or meant to impact change. Yeah. Oh. Oh, I can't hear sound. Sorry, I had someone knock and I had to
mute for a second. I told you it was going to be one of those days. Okay. Um, there is you guys both referenced this phrase empathy interviews. Can you go a little bit more in depth about the empathy interviews? Tamara, definitely take that one on. Yeah. So, empathy interviews, we really wanted to use this as an opportunity to hear from those most proximal to the challenge, right? And so, uh, we actually call out in our contextually responsive, uh, methodology and systems in our framework that we speak of in the book that that's oftentimes what's absent when we talk about change work in schools or districts. You know, there's a a survey that goes out that's really, you know, measured qu uh, quantitatively, right? So, how many folks feel like this or feel like that?
And then there's a question about who you're really whose voice are you capturing in that survey? who's getting access to the opportunity to really lift their voice and share their experience. And so in an empathy interview, it is more intimate. It's that one-on-one conversation with someone going through some questions and really more of an opportunity to listen and hear their story. So there's a few guiding questions that we asked, but more than that, we sat back and provided a safe space for folks to uh really share and do storytelling in that moment of their experience of of the system and and the things that they gone through as a leader. And if I could add, it's like when you think about when you're putting something like a product at scale, you might often have like testers or if you know you're creating change, like Tamara said, you go ahead and you survey and you're just polling. The thing that was
great about using the empathy interviews was actually going through the process to figure out, well, could people have large-scale change and use this methodology? The answer is yes because what we're positioning for folks is try an empathy interview to make sure you're actually even creating the right instrument, right? Because what we did was we went through the interviews, coded the interviews, and then from those codes, that's how we came up with the chapters of the book. So yes, we may have a story to tell, but is it a story that will serve many or most, right? And so just starting from the space of an empathy interview to ensure that you're actually setting up the right line of questioning was really the push that we not only gave ourselves but are pushing systems. Yeah. You you both talked about how as you started to do some of this research and
formulate things, you saw that there were other people that had similar stories. As you started to do the research though, were there any of any preconceived notions that you had that ended up being turned on its head, huh? Good one. Look at that. You stumped us and we're talkers. Listen, because I I love numbers, though. If you watch the show, you know that my background is sociology and anthropology. I love numbers. I love stats. I love the polling. I love all of that stuff. And I know that a lot of times you go into it perceived because you live in a certain bubble or certain environment. You say things are going to be X and they end up being Y. So as you're going through the research, as you're putting things together, was there anything that you were like, "Wow, I didn't expect that."
I don't think for me Oh, no. Tamara, go because then I can figure mine out a little bit more. Well, I don't know that I was 100% shocked by it, but I hadn't leaned in. um I think as intensely in the space where in thinking about the sexism and the maternity discrimination um that we uncovered in different stories and so in the middle section of our book when we're really diving into the empathy interview accounts I think um you know that piece I think moved me in immensely and the great extent of maternity dis discrimination quite honestly that we were able to document, right? Uh was a major shocker and and I think even some of the comments gave me
pause to know that the women heard comments and statements from their leadership like you cannot take leave because who will keep the kids under control if you're gone? You've got, you know, the toughest campus and that's your role for a reason. And so denying someone the opportunity to um serve as mother and at the helm in their home, right, something I just couldn't quite wrap my mind around and had not leaned in as intensely in that space. And so the accounts that we received um around maternity and the lack thereof an opportunity to heal or even being called back to work early while you were healing and made to feel like your job would be on the line if you didn't. Um and yeah, so that probably really gave me most pause as we collected our
stories. Yeah, I didn't have like a big shocker. I think similar to Tamara, it was just like, oh, leaning in in spaces. For me, we explored the tropes like we were connecting what are the tropes apply to black women and and how many of those tropes can we find in the root of the plantation. And so I was ready to understand the mammy trope be alive and well um in a lot of the stories. It was the black girl magic issue. Like we definitely saw and heard women feeling compelled to change even before the job demanded it, right? And so it was one of those things where I was like, well, how much of this are we doing to ourselves? So in addition to the empathy interviews, we have polls. And one of the things that struck me was we um had three AI images.
One of like an Asian presenting, white presenting, black presenting boss. We pretty much asked, "Who would you want to be your boss?" And so for black women, it was like, "Okay, great." We thought, if not all, every would everyone would say they'd want a black manager. Yeah. We saw that there were some black women and weren't prepared for the black women who picked white managers, and we were just like, "O just, you know, just let's just talk about that a bit." And the short version of their story was just that, well, they know that white women would get an easier assignment. And so they pick that manager just because like it wasn't an internal hate or anything like that. It was like I know the game. I know how the loads are divided. If I follow the white leader, the white leader will have to do less and that means I can get some balance. So that was interesting. And then alongside that, we asked them to all the
women, 50 white women, 50 black women, pick who you feel like had an impact on your profession and your trajectory. Well, across the board, we were also shocked to see every single white woman said that there was a black woman who actually mentored them through their um careers. And so, it just seemed like there's something happening on here where we've internalized roles. And I we can't take we can't take a step back. We've always been the nurturers and the forefront leaders. It's detriment sometimes. I swear it's like what are we doing to ourselves on top of what the system is designed to do to us became really the lean in question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got to ask you this question for you guys to elaborate a little bit on the sexism part. At least from the last polling that I've seen, it says about 77% of teachers and administrators are women in the K through 12 space. So
when you talk about sexism, that's a little bit it sounds kind of interesting given the majority of the folks in the space are women. So can you break that down? Yeah. And I think I want to start with so you've got to distinguish teaching body and leadership piece of it because white males are still dominating leadership spaces. And so when we think of history and that lead learner and who gets to uh lead the schoolhouse, that is still predominantly governed by white males, whether we're talking about superintendency positions from assistant soup all the way up to the soup, uh directors, those are positions sometimes often forgot about. So there are these directors, coordinator, principal, assistant principal positions, deans
even, right, that we can add in there. And those spaces are still heavily maledominated. Yeah. Heavily white male. Yes. White male. Yes. Less I want to don't don't quote me on this, but we know it's less than 4% when it comes down to women and men of color who are superintendent. And then if you want to talk about women, we're talking about 1% one. Yes. Yes. I was recently at a back up. There we go. You said in in a field that is 77% women. You would hope that at least 13% if you're trying to be equitable about it be black women. You're telling me only 1%.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Look, I'm trying to find the where we had our stats written here. Yeah. And even if you pull up the current workforce, I've got the stat right here. Last measured between 2022 and 2025. They're saying it's less than 2% hovering some around somewhere around that 1.4.4. And we're talking about for black women superintendent. Yes. Yes. Do do you think and I mean, forgive me if I'm being presumptive, but do you think that part of that outside of how the system is built that there are women because I know I've heard from male black educators that say, "I see what the game looks like. I know what it takes and I'm tired. I don't have the energy to try and do all the things to
make to to push further." Do you think that there is some of that the the the um the fight and I use this I use this phrasing intentionally that the fight has been whipped out of our black women, our black men in positions of education that they don't want to push forward into these uh more pronounced leadership roles. There's so much to that one. I feel like the guts, my gut thinking is first what I know happens largely what like the studies show what happens when women apply to jobs versus men. Like we literally will just qualify ourselves out and say we don't have whatever like I wish for everyone the confidence of a mediocre white man
because if we could just channel that maybe there would be more of us. So I think step one, how many of us say, "Oh, this is so much in credentiing that I don't think I can have that seat." I think that's step one. Then I think too, especially when I think about black men very specifically in the field, because even though this is about black women, the the learnings still apply. So many black men with degrees, with credentials are reduced, and I'm going to say reduced intentionally, reduced to cultural roles in schools. be the dads that are absent and also that's right. So I come with my full degree and what you want me to do is be a disciplinarian or Yeah. Yeah. Right. So there's so much that I think it's like yeah we're perpetuating a lot of unproductive mindsets when we think about holding that seat.
But I also think that thinks that just gives credit to who we are also as a people. We're not playing games when it comes to our children. Yeah. Of course, we're asking questions of ourselves before we go ahead and take on a task of leadership. But I feel like the system puts hurdles in place. You're talking about 70% women. Well, if you assume that most women are holding a weight of family, has the system designed itself to to accomodate that women, there's so much. If you want us to lead, help us. Yeah. Yeah. For those of you that watch the show, we know that Elgen is a school teacher in the Philadelphia school district. And he has lamented being pushed into roles of being the uh the enforcer, the uh disciplinarian, the overseer, the all the things that have nothing to do with his skill set and
what he's there to actually teach and uh the children. So, it's it's sad to hear that that's that is across the board, especially when you find in our communities being forced by being forced by white people to be in those roles when you know exactly how to impact better our children. So, can you talk a little bit more about the microaggressions because I know that's that's also part of that that larger picture. So, can you lay into that a bit for me? Yeah. And I I even think this question segus into it, right? Because it's an automatic assumption that folks make that, oh, you can do this as the disciplinarian. So, where does that perspective, bias, or even viewpoint come from, right? That you're better suited to handle this role than anyone
else in the house. And I just even want to add, and it's a double bind because I even experienced that as an elementary teacher. and you don't want to be seen and set as that's your one skill set. But there is something important too about the opportunity to provide protection for some of your students and all of you quite honestly who are not being advocated for or given the opportunity for a safe and culturally responsive learning environment. Right? And so I know at least in my story I felt compelled to allow my classroom to be a refuge for those students who were being misunderstood and having comments made by other educators on the campus like you'll end up in jail just like one two and three or this or you won't be
this right or even a a case of um profanity used and we're talking about fourth grade and diminishing a child that way and and actually most of these accounts were black males. So, children, black boys, young black boys having that experience in the school system. So, the double bind of you don't want to only be viewed in that way as your skill set and be the only one on the site carrying that large task, right, of support and protection. But at the same time, I know for me, I felt called to go on and write the system forcing you right into that space because there was no way I was going to watch and witness what I was witnessing and not step in. So, so, so the question becomes, how do you balance that then? How do you become
How do you become a constant advocate, a constant shield, a constant mouthpiece for people for children that are being marginalized and mistreated without you as a teacher, as a professional then being labeled as a rabble rouser, as a troublemaker, as all of the I have to take this one because I it's making me remember when I first was interviewed to be a principal and I will just say for a shorter version of the story. It was, "Oh, she's well spoken. She's also pretty adept in content." Aka, they didn't think I was black enough to serve a all black school. The way that they coded it in the interview question was they were they were saying, "Dragon, would you consider yourself more instructional or more cultural?" And I remember thinking to myself, this
is a coded question. Okay, you don't know me yet, but you're gonna find out right now. Right. So, the the my response and I'll never forget it. I said, "Ah, it's interesting. It's as though when we come to black spaces, we have to choose one or the other." I believe in the culture of instruction, right? And the reason why I said it that way is that, let's be very clear, if you are the rebel rouser, then they were going to design systems to quiet you and silence you. You could be like the golden handcuffs of leadership. You feel like you are living in gold, but you're still tied down to some unseen. The unwritten curriculum, so to speak. Bird in the gilded cage is still in the cage. Yeah. Okay. Yes. But the other issue with why I'm I'm saying if you want to advocate for students, don't accept that cultural because what they're expecting you to do
is in short, love kids dumb. Never push them. Don't push them into rigorous spaces. just love them because behind that assumption or demand or behind that demand is the assumption that they are coming from families that don't already love them and they'll become docile in the long term too. You don't want them to be out there challenging folks. Yeah. I think what it boils down to is like when people are talking about CRT and all these other things politically, what you have to really understand is that the system doesn't want you to ask questions. Yeah, there it is. Right. Not only do they not want you to ask questions of yourself like, could I do more? Yeah. Yeah. Can I literally lead for change? They don't want you. They definitely don't want you to questioning the system. No. And guess what? They want you to design students that don't even know that there are questions to ask. Right? So, if you're talking about
advocacy and leading, the question is, what are the questions you're always asking yourself? What is self- interrogation look like for you? Because that's the only way you know or can even have an advocacy opportunity surfaced. Yeah. All right. Um, there's a portion of the book where you guys talk about justice by design. Valerie, if you could please just give give me a bird's eye view of what justice by design looks like. Or can you not do a bird's eye? I'm not gonna I'm not gonna No, I feel like I you just got me somewhere. Let Tamara take that one. Tam, you start because I'm Mallerie wants to set fire to rain. Okay, go ahead, Tamara. Uh so in our chapter justice by design that was really us getting into the space of so we're asking you to examine
the challenges and the problems of practice on the school site and quite honestly it could be across any sector. So not only education with the lens of continuous improvement and intersectionality. And so really taking those two and merging it together and asking folks to be contextually responsive, really leaning in and do the things that are often not done right by hearing from those who are most proximal to the challenge and then being willing to map out what parts of the system do we need to reimagine and redesign and what is it going to cost and really getting an account of and are we willing in that space to push forward and do that work. Um, and really embodying that continuous improvement spirit to say, how do we get that 1% better, right? How do we continue to chip away at it?
Recognizing that it's not going to happen overnight, but really how do we start mitigating the harm that's happening inside of these systems, right? And whether that's when we think about microaggressions and Valerie and I have often talked about what happens in HR, like where is this documented and held? are there systems that really view, you know, um disciplinary measures, right, to say who's being disciplined most for same accounts and things. So, we're asking folks to really hone in and learn and unpack and see their system for what it is and then be willing to be courageous enough to step in and reimagine an improved design and recognizing that folks are going to have to be bold enough to sit with discomfort, right? because you're going
to have to try something different and not all change is good change. But can we create a space that's safe for learning to say but we've got to do something else because we've been at this reform thing in all spaces whether we're talking about supporting the adults or the students and we're not getting anywhere. Right? Things are compounding and getting worse to the point where we've named it is a poly crisis. And so can we envision a system for justice and to really lift all those in the system? Um and we are outlining a framework um and a methodology that really helps people take it step by step because we recognize you got to take one bite of the elephant, right? And so a lot of the times in this work you hear a diagnostic approach of what is the problem but we wanted to come at this and really think of but how can we work towards a resolve
and help people appreciate how they can start making improvements. Yeah. If I could add really quick. I think that's like you know one of the questions that we still actually fight about. We're write we're writing a second book because we're fighting about it so much. But it's like do you have to burn it down? Oh man, you just got here. How you already doing the second book? You just got here. Or it's like we got it. Nerds. I told you. Dig it. I dig it. I dig it. It's like step one. Do you have to burn it down for change to be true or can you actually like renovate the house and then get there? So it's like what is the method that honors all experiences and and the reality of change work that if you burn it down then it's almost like anarchy, anarchy. We're all afraid of that, right? So there's one step that's like you understand that justice just how we've actually thought about justice
is still very paternalistic. We're still sitting in a space where we're assigning what justice looks like instead of pulling people in. So that's why the empathy interviews but then we are calling out a very specific type of leadership. We didn't say culturally responsive because even culture has become generalized. Yeah. That it's called contextual responsiveness. We want leaders who will take in context and create new understandings of data that drives design. Right? That's how we'll get closer to justice. It's not just about continuous improvement of systems, but you're going to have to think about the people who are going to use, be served, and benefit from the system as well. Okay. So, I I want you guys you guys can divide the two questions however you feel best. I do have two questions for you. Okay. one I want one of you to
please elaborate more about the extractive oppression that you mentioned earlier and then the second question that I have for you is very often in many fields where black people almost all but many fields where black people are the minority we go into these situations thinking that we can change the system from the inside. Policing is one perfect example of that. And very often we find ourselves where we get on the inside and we become tools of the system. We don't change the system. So how do you change this system if you already know that the system is quote unquote rigged against you? And once again for one of you to please elaborate a little bit on the extractive oppression. Tamara coined extractive oppression.
So in the process of empathy interviews, I felt like I was hearing um extraction, right? Extraction of labor, emotional regulation from the women that we were speaking to. Um intellectual property even when you are building and creating all of these things in your leadership role. um and not getting the credit, having limited authority and zero protection around doing the work you've been uh asked to do. And so extractive oppression came to me and thinking about how you extract minerals, riches from the earth, extracting uh the very essence out of us. Um and it's actually now evolved into a systems condition. So really helping folks to appreciate when you're experiencing this, you know, similar to my own story, it
wasn't a personality flaw in myself that I wasn't enough or wasn't meeting the moment to match the outcome. It was rather I was in a condition in the system that was in a state of condition of extractive oppression where it actually is designed to improve off of my harm. Right? because we can meet the goal and increase the outcomes, but oftent times it's put on one person to do that and so at what cost will it do to me and then even in that role you're working in opposite of your agency. So to your question earlier about so taking on that on though with students and supporting in that discipline role, how do you find balance? Well, it's just that there won't be balance, right? there will not be and that's why we see the turnover, burnout, even physical
wellness, mental health decreasing, right? Because you are being put in positions to work against your own agency and what's best for you and and that's really where extractive oppression came from. Yeah. I can only imagine because I know that teachers as a profession already are in a position where they are overwhelmed. I can only imagine where black women and black men sit in that position given the extra responsibilities that are given to them. You know, there's a saying that goes, "No good deed goes unpunished." And it seems like I hear stories about that all the time. Uh Valerie, please. I know you're I know you're ready to tell me how you can burn it's not about reforming the system. You got to burn that [expletive] down and start. You know what I think is so interesting is that like the question itself is so loaded and I'm going to separate the
need to uh you know feel like I'm going to answer it directly. So just don't expect that one. I feel as though we have to first understand that being a change leader is not the same thing as being a hero. Right? And we're not expecting heroicism. Right? Because heroicism, anytime we've talked about it, there's a little bit of like the humanity being lost, like you're the superhuman who could just bypass all all the things. When you are in a system and you want to create change, part of me just says, are you built for that? There are a bunch of people who want things to change, but then you can't even change the most basic things about yourself that you have control over. Like, do you even have the discipline for change? Right? Not everybody is a change maker and a change. Cold blooded
boy. That's cold blooded. So I want to say like let's be real because you have people who you're not even built like that. Don't even No, because I want to be honest because you you'll have people who will tell their stories and then change your purpose, right? I don't want you to listen to people who saying I tried to fight the system and you're kind of like you still can't change your socks. You still can't. Right? So there's a pause on you can contribute to change or you could be a change leader and you have to be built to be a change leader. That's the first thing. The second is it's like how are you defining change? Usually when change doesn't work it's selfserving because change has never happened alone. So if you're changing something for yourself in a system that's messed up, it's not going to work. Yeah. Right. But if you can actually get co-conspirators to align themselves with
your vision for change and you can articulate change and make the route to it accessible, then you're not doing it alone. And guess what? You're one step further than everyone else. Right? So it's can I lead for change and what is the change that benefits all because being, you know, selfserving, that's not what we're talking about here. It's like large scale um change does require strategy. Right. And so I think it's like just figure out who you are. Are you trying to con like contribute to positive and productive impact? Well, that's small. That could be something small. I started an affinity group at work, right? If you did that, that's great. That's it's improved conditions as change. But when you're talking about largecale systems change, it's not done alone. And you are going to have to just anticipate some
level of self-sacrifice. Are you ready? M or are you just using the the uh the I guess the cloak of change as a as a route to get proximity to power or to you know so that's that's a whole another conversation you don't want to open that No because as you're saying it I'm I'm really trying to flesh out all of the and I don't use this term disparagingly. I flesh out all of the horror stories I hear from people in their professions. people with degrees and skill sets that tell you all of the things. And you hear very often stories about these um these informants for lack of a better description, right? They come into the system saying they want to change the system and then ultimately end up becoming tools of the system or just getting closer to proximity power and
then throwing everybody's throwing the whole agenda off whack. The intent matters. I think like honestly if I could I unfortunately I think mostly of like black men. So I can't really think of a black woman who I'd add to this right now. Maybe Stacy Abrams, but if you really think about how does a lot of largecale change happen and you can always go back to someone who sold a story to many people very well and that they were able to get people to believe. So, like part of me says, if you're looking for a product or something tangible at the end of it, you're probably not designed for change because anyone who actually is leading for change starts by vision setting. They just want to figure
out how many more people can see it the way I see it. And they don't even risk the change until There it is. There it is. So, am I true or not? Yeah, I dig it 100%. Right. So, go back to everyone. I could like I can remember the first time oh when when Obama spoke and I was like oh oh right it's that moment that says I think I can believe in change too. So if you're really in a system and you're trying to change it recognize you will be a tool if you're looking for a product or a specific outcome. If you're trying to change beliefs like hearts and mind that's something different. Okay. And you know what? I want to just add one piece to that because there are some folks who are trying to get closer to the power structure and then I want to I feel like it's important to name especially as I'm reading rereading Animal Farm by George Orwell. There are
some folks who in a space of tyranny you're hoping to create change, right? And then there's something about how pervasive the system is that the persons who start out as decision makers and in that story it was the pigs right they started out wanting to create a better opportunity in space right and I feel like that story even speaks to an example of extractive oppression quite honestly where uh the farm is being sustained by extractive labor right everyone on the farm is benefiting by the animals except for the animals being able to benefit from their own reap. Right? So quite honestly a allegorical example of extractive oppression. But in that narrative you can see how easy it is to perpetuate once you get in the
seat as the decision maker to uh change things. So it starts out in a a positive way, right? And then all of a sudden things start to shift and you could see the change right in hierarchy. And so I do believe that often times there are some folks who go in wanting to do something different and then when they have a seat at the table and realize the dynamics there, um it's hard to make sure that your voice doesn't change for the worst, right? And that you don't start perpetuating what you have fought against to get in that seat. Yeah. Becoming William O'Neal to everyone's Fred Hampton. So I it's Oh, good one. I like that. Well, all right. Um, I do want to end this off with a qu Well, there are two questions that are remaining. One is going to be a fun question, but the first question to wrap up this
conversation. We talked about education, its current place now, all of the pitfalls, challenges, and uh shortcomings that we see in education as it stands now. But the future of K through 12, where do you see that headed? Especially, and you can't you can't extract it this time, Valerie, given the current administration now. Yeah. Where do you guys see the future of K through 12? I I'm going to say this is where I see the hope. I think K through 12 is going to be what it currently is for a very long time. Unfortunately, what you're going to see is more privatizations. like the families that can will continue to go ahead and create new versions of red lining that keeps their students and their children safe from a world that they want to control. Um, I also feel
like I'm putting hope on um, like I said, I consult there is a a group that I'm consulting with where they are creating micro schools and they are pushing for micro schools for black children very specifically. And I think the short version of a longer origin story is around the time of COVID when schools were closing there were many families that picked up some version of homeschooling or hubschooling which just said we are the community will come together and rotate shifts. Well, there are some people who never left that space and they're creating curricula behind it and they're and that's the push this idea of like I will be able to give school in the way that best serves the people who aren't being served by the current systems. And so I actually think the future is if it's not in privatization, it's going to be in a lot more entrepreneurship for people who
really want to redesign systems and have decided they can't stay in it to do so. meaning that you and when you say these micro schools, are you talking about um un unacredited ways of like cramm school? You know, like Korea and Japan, they have cramm school after school. Are you talking about forms like that after school? No, no, they're actually seeking accreditation. I think to be quite honest, even why I'm consulting with them is that getting that approved in terms of accredited enough to say instead of the $8,000 that would have went to this system, we want to redirect the public funds to our schools. It's very tough to do so in this here climate, if you can imagine. No, I do. Right. Um and so what we're doing is everything has concessions. We're just like, well, can we create a micro school label and do an application process that
literally targets marginalized communities without us putting it on paper? But it's this idea of it being accredited, it being publicly funded, and an option for families to say, I want it smaller. I want it more niche, and I want it more targeted for the student and the child and the adult I'm trying to raise. Okay. Yeah. Tamara, the future of education. Yeah. Um, I think it's it's scary. Um, I'm also thinking about the role that AI plays as well. And so I can see bright spots in some ways and I see a division, right? Another level of have and have nots and opportunity to access for learning and quality learning, right? And so to Dragon's point, those who have will put their children in the spaces where they can get and continue to do in that way, but those who are much uh who
are most vulnerable will continue to be most vulnerable and experience disparities and setbacks and I think a lack of resource. Um and so um you know I I'm holding hope right for those who are I talked to a lot of leaders who are starting charter schools and creating other spaces and these hubs and and pods for learning and uh trying to do wraparound work to say um if this is what's coming how do we mitigate it to make sure that our most vulnerable are safe protected and getting access. So, I'm I'm encouraged by that, but um yeah, there's a part of me that just says the challenges are just becoming extremely large. And so, some change effort has to take place really uh in order to try to see if we can really have some impact
and and make a difference not only in student outcomes but in the learning environment for and the work environment for the adults in the system as well. There's there's so much more so many more questions that I would love to ask you guys. To be honest with you, this is we could talk about this for a very very long time, but um I would like to end this conversation on a positive note. Okay. Um, given that you've explained that this book was written by two nerds who commiserated, saw a need, and wanted to fill a need, I'm going and as two educators, okay, I have to ask you, if you were to say that there is a character in either a book, a film, short story, video game, doesn't matter, that you relate most closely to, who
would that character be and Why? I will let you know that this is the question that I typically ask people that I'm meeting for the first time. So, I'm going to ask you this question because the answers can be very very uh eye opening. So, I'm going to let I'm just introducing myself to Tamara. I want I want Tamara to go ahead and answer that question first. Please. Thank you. Well, you know what? I'm gonna do a a throwback to uh Susie. I think it was CZ Q from Rugrats um in her role there with the Rugrats cartoon. Um she certainly put herself in a leadership role and space to rally rally the group and the crew there. Um and she was a voice of
reason. Um sometimes she didn't always win out, you know, Angelica was very influential and got her way often. So, but uh she was always willing to still even when uh the rest of the group wasn't behind her, hold her own, even if that meant on some episodes she's like, "I'm going home. I'm just not gonna play." And so, I am definitely known to say, "I'mma pack up all my stuff and I refuse to play the game." So, Draen knows that about me and uh I am not afraid to say, "Okay, this is going in the wrong direction." And so since it's not the way I want to move, I'm just going to pack up and say I'm out. Dig it. I dig it. Okay. All right. Go ahead, Dragon. It's your turn. I literally tried to wreck my brain and
nothing came to me. All you see, this is so sad. I want to say separate from Sleeping with the White Man, I'm going to still have to go to Olivia Pope and Scandal is the first thing that came to mind because you have to understand my job. My job is like to go around to schools and teams and they're just like this thing called school is not working. And I'm like fix it. Here's the plan. So I just like honestly my team is like can't you just pop it dragon? And I'm like I'm so accustomed to just feeling like be the fixer. Be the fixer. Teacher kind of. You try to do me in. I asked you a simple question. Your husband's a nerd. I would have thought that these are things that would have been percolating in the back of your mind already. You could No, because what I'm telling you what my husband would be like, why didn't you say storm? Why didn't you stay storm?
I'm like a hair to match like Well, look, I need to double down on I've seen storm come out in you because another part of our story is this research was almost silenced and and thwarted and and I'd been in it a long time and was growing tired of the process two years in and Dragon came in with a fresh voice, some new energy and said, "No, we can't stop with the, you know, allow the challenges and the hurdles to silence this work. We've got to move forward. And so I saw uh her thunder and lightning come as storms. I'm going to say I love that interview. You know what's funny? I honestly I know it sounds very cliche and maybe too much
on the nose, but I honestly thought you were going to say something like Daenerys Targaryen or something like that. You know, here's the thing. I was not happy with her ending. That was the first that came to mind. But I'm sorry for her to be the Kesi and go out like that was just That's fair. That's fair. That's I love it. Best question ever. I love that. Tamara Simpson, Valerie Dragon, thank you both for joining me for another incredible episode of the show. Two very intelligent, eloquent, and extremely extremely powerful black women. Please, if you could tell our folks where they can find you if they would dare to find you. Perfect. Tamara, you go out. Yes. So, um, follow me on my website. It is www.le. So, that's l a d-t.
Uh, you can also find me on LinkedIn, Tamara Simpimsonvaxter. Uh, so I'm available both of those spaces. Um, and yeah, I'm trying to thinking Instagram handles too. Tamara Simpson has an Instagram handle. So on most social media platforms, uh, and available to connect. Yeah. Wonderful. For me, I would say professionally speaking, it's this Valerie Dragon. Find me on LinkedIn. I put a lot of thought leadership there for folks who are interested. Um, and then I also like Tamara's hiding the fact that she's also a children's author when she's not being a nerd. Um, and I am a a poet and a little I'm writing a po a novel. Um, so you can find me on Tik Tok. Um, King and Dragon. My pen name is Madison King. So, King and Dragon writes books um on Tik Tok and then Valerie Dragon on LinkedIn.
And as far as where you can see us together, I think the most exciting next step for us is we're going to be presenting to a panel of um nerds to the highest esteem at the American um Education Research Association where we'll be presenting this um in April. So that'll be in California. So that's like a next big step for us is to put this in front of researchers for their feedback, critique, and connections. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, fantastic. Thank you both very much. And I am Big O, Mr. in the Black himself. You can find me on Twitter and on Instagram and Tik Tok if I'm there occasionally at Mr_Iintheblack. And I want to thank you guys for joining us for another incredible episode of the In the Black podcast. You could have been anywhere else in the world, but you chose to kick with us and we really appreciate it. Make sure you follow us across social media at Intheblack PDCST
on Facebook, Twitter, and on Instagram. And of course, if you want the behindthe-scenes content, you can come on over and join the family and come on over to our Patreon. We promise you, you will not regret it. But until next time, informed, intelligent in the black. Peace. Thank you. Thank you.
